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Here’s a link where you can order the book: https://www.amazon.com/Once-Frozen-Now-Family-Adoption/dp/B0DY1VW7LG?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

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NOTE: If you would like to learn more about joining Dr. Davis’s embryo adoption support group, you may email her at jaclyndavisphd@gmail.com. Here is the link to her private practice: https://www.glenforestpsychological.com/.

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 01:09
Mark Mellinger
So let me start here. How are Timothy and Lydia doing? They look like they're doing great. And how is the rest of your family adjusted? 

 01:17
Rachel Ridgeway
Well, they are growing amazingly by God's grace. Their pediatrician has been so impressed with them because when they were born, they were good size, but they were like on the fifth percentile for weight and length, and they've gone up to the 50th. And so their pediatrician couldn't be any happier with their growth and development. And the kids, we all love them. We can't imagine life without them at this point. It's been such a blessing and so much fun. And each of the kids takes turn holding them and caring for them and loving them. 

 01:48
Mark Mellinger
Are you getting sleep? I mean, they should be decent sleepers by this age, right? 

 01:55
Rachel Ridgeway
You would hope. And the pediatrician says, oh, they can sleep through the night now. They weigh a heavy enough. I'm like, yeah, you got to tell them that Lydia is by far the better sleeper. She's pretty low maintenance. Peter put her to bed. She's pretty happy about that. Timothy's our snuggle bug. 

 02:13
Mark Mellinger
He's with Daddy right now. And I think they're both a little fascinated with the computer that you're doing this interview through that's. Okay, let's go talk, first of all, about your experience through the NEDC. We'll start there. You were intentional about selecting embryos that had been here a long time. You wanted to do this. 

 02:36
Rachel Ridgeway
Why? 

 02:37
Philip Ridgeway
So when were thinking through how would we select a profile, we didn't have any sort of characteristic in mind if we want children with similar hair color or eye color or whatever. So we couldn't think of any criteria we would use to select embryos except for, well, just give us the oldest ones, the webs that have been waiting the longest. And so that's what went with. 

 03:08
Mark Mellinger
Because you knew that those embryos were harder to place. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'm sort of asking that question. I know you guys share our heart for life. I mean, that's why we're here, is to protect the sanctity and dignity of human embryos. And these children that you're holding were frozen for just a month and a half shy of 30 years, which is just amazing. That was your heart behind this, right? You wanted the embryos that you wanted to give the embryos a shot at life that were likely going to be harder to place. 

 03:41
Philip Ridgeway
Yeah, that was part of it. But also just the fact that each of these embryos is a human being that God has created in his own image, he's given life to, they have value. They're all equally as valuable in our minds. We couldn't think of a way of saying, well, we want some and not others. So rather than selecting some arbitrary criteria, we said we want those that have been waiting there the longest. That have been waiting the longest to be adopted into a family. 

 04:25
Mark Mellinger
Yeah. Lydia's giving Rachel some problems over there. I understand she's getting hungry. That's totally understandable. Let me ask you this. I mentioned that this was big news several months ago. Are you glad that you went public with your story? Would you do it all over again? 

 04:43
Rachel Ridgeway
Oh, yeah. The amount of people that even just our church body getting to know about embryo adoption and everything involved with that and then having it go public, just being able to talk to more and more people about embryo adoption and the sanctity of life and why these kids are just as important as any other kids out there that are in need of families and really just to be able to glorify God and to give him the credit for the fact that he's the one that created Timothy and Lydia. He's the one that sustained them for the 30 years in the freezer and then sustained them in my womb and continues to sustain them and to be able to give him the glory for what he has done and just to give these babies a face because it's such a hard, nebulous idea for people to come to grips with that there are millions of children frozen out there that just need a chance at life. 

 05:36
Rachel Ridgeway
And it's such a strange thought and process that most people have never even heard of. And so to be able to give it that platform so that people can know and understand and want to look into it for themselves, it's a huge blessing for us. 

 05:50
Philip Ridgeway
It's also been helpful, even just for ourselves. It's challenged us to think through the issue of life and what the Bible says about that and how do we evaluate from a biblical perspective things like IVF and infertility. So that's really helped us to sort of codify what we believe and to speak to people about that issue because it's a common thing. And what we found is that very few people who haven't done embryo adoption or even IDF don't know what it is, what it all involves, what the moral implications of it. So it's been helpful even just for us, but also for the people that God's providentially brought into our lives. We've been able to share our story and teach them about embryo adoption and the life that God has given to these children. 

 06:46
Mark Mellinger
Well, that's a key point, is that a lot of people will just rush into, if they have the money IVF when they're going through infertility what you're saying. And I know, by the way, even though you have four older children, you all experienced infertility before this. So this is not something with which you are unfamiliar. It's a sensitive topic for you. It's a very real topic for you. And you're saying even though you had gone through it and I know you did not need to go all the way to IVF. You did not go all the way to IVF, even with that background as pretext embryo adoption even made you stop think further, refine your views on what links you will go to achieve children, on the link between fertility and. 

 07:41
Philip Ridgeway
Faith, and also just how to think through it. There are some people that we encountered that were adamantly opposed to embryo adoption just because it's loosely connected with IVF, thinking that somehow embryo adoption promotes IVF, causes more IVF to happen. That was really something that we wrestled through and thought through and had to formulate arguments in our minds. And it was very helpful in that respect. 

 08:12
Mark Mellinger
I remember having a conversation about that with you two while you were pregnant with them, and that was interesting. It is a question that you run into every now and then, and it's a good, thoughtful question that we're happy to engage. What was it like seeing your story told by media outlet after media outlet all over the world, sometimes very entertaining. Okay, yeah. And I know some of this. What were some of the moments that you found entertaining? 

 08:50
Rachel Ridgeway
I think it was my uncle shared an article and it had the wrong photo on it. So saying our family, but it was actually the previous record holder's family photo. They just used some sort of random twin photo of any twins. And so it was our story. But those aren't our kids. Those are pretty funny or just different things that we realized that very quickly, that different news outlets just play telephone now. We have a couple of interviews in person, but then there's all these articles and you can see the little tweaks. So somehow somebody got something wrong. 

 09:27
Philip Ridgeway
Yeah, they hear that, then EDC is in Tennessee and they just assumed that were in Tennessee. Our location changed from article to article. There was some humor in it, and at first it was surprising, but at the same time, were grateful for the opportunities we talked about that God chose to use us in this way and that he is being glorified in this, that life is being put on display and people are hearing the truth. There was someone from our church that read the CNN article and said, yeah, it ends with the sovereignty of God, that God is the one who ordains life and creates life and preserves life, sustains life. That's been our desire all along, for God to be glorified in this. 

 10:20
Mark Mellinger
And that's what you did. You did it all throughout. I loved how you did it, and you really did it in an articulate and intentional way. It wasn't just sort of generic Hallmark card, glorifying God and praising God. There was some theological weight behind it. And I love that about your story. Yeah. And it was interesting seeing the various places that you lived, whether it was Tennessee or Washington oregon, they could have just thought, I guess, that you were sort of a family that was living out of an RV or something, because it did change occasionally. What were some of the most memorable responses you received from folks? I'm not talking about members of the media. I'm talking about just people who saw your story either in person or online. 

 11:16
Rachel Ridgeway
You've had somebody stop you and go, hey, I know you from high school and I saw your article, I think. 

 11:23
Philip Ridgeway
Yeah, that was at the Burbank Airport. 

 11:27
Mark Mellinger
Is that right? 

 11:29
Rachel Ridgeway
Yeah. Oh, I got text messages from friends and different long distance family members that were like, hey, we saw you people go look at my Facebook feed, and all of a sudden, wait, that's a little bit Rachel. They're on there. We didn't really make it public that were going to do this. We just kind of put it out there. So I think it's quite entertaining for a lot of our church family to see our faces plastered over for a few days and be like, I know those people. 

 11:57
Mark Mellinger
You mentioned the telephone world of the media, how a lot of them will basically lift details that were gathered by somebody else and make it their own. That was one aspect that stood out to you. I think another aspect that stood out is a lot of the media, like local TV stations or online outlets, are owned by the same companies. So basically, if you do something with one station, you can be sending it out to the entire country. That didn't used to be the case. Were there other aspects of working with the media that surprised you from either a positive or negative standpoint? 

 12:40
Rachel Ridgeway
For the most part, I think it was all pretty positive. We didn't really run into any big hiccups or anything. I have to say, I think the Guinness World Record article was quite impressive. I was actually very shocked by that one, thinking that we filled out this long survey question by question for them, and they just took it and they put it out there word for word. And so even with our references to the Lord and his sustaining and all that, they put it out there. I was like, oh, sweet. That's pretty cool. 

 13:13
Mark Mellinger
That was so cool. And it was so cool that I have the plaque hanging across from my office here at the NEDC. You guys were nice enough to let us have like, a replica plaque because you have a plaque there. 

 13:26
Rachel Ridgeway
Yeah, well, they do, I guess. 

 13:32
Mark Mellinger
Right? It's so cool. And it's funny, people do they stop by and notice it all the time and they're like, oh, that was you guys. So they knew about the story, or if they hadn't heard the story, they're like, that is amazing. Almost 30 years. We'll try to get some placards with your pictures and stuff, too, to add to that. So you'll always have a home in Tennessee. Whether the media says you do or not, you'll always be here in a sense. Hey, I'm always interested. And by the way, let me say this. This was largely the experience with some of our other couples who have done massive nationwide publicity. There have only been a couple, but generally we as Christians can sometimes bang on the media and be down on them. And there are some legitimate criticisms there, but I always like to praise them where I can. 

 14:26
Mark Mellinger
And I would say I agree with the two of you that by and large, they were very friendly, very courteous. They did share your Christian viewpoint in most cases, which was very important to you, and we let them know that. So they were very respectful and good to work with, and they usually are in the context of the NEC. So we appreciate those in the media who do it well as we do any profession that's a gift from God. So of all the media coverage, which reporter outlet did the best job telling your story? You mentioned that Guinness did a great job. Was there anybody else who stood out as yeah, this is the one. If I had to point somebody to our story. 

 15:13
Philip Ridgeway
There was the initial article with the Gospel Coalition. We were really satisfied, happy with that. How the author, she did a really good job with that story. Actually, the CNN one were quite impressed with, and were surprised at how well they covered accurately portrayed things that he said. But we also did a local interview with a reporter. Do you remember the station? Reporter's name was Alma, and it was. 

 15:43
Mark Mellinger
With it's hard to remember. I get it. 

 15:49
Philip Ridgeway
Yeah, I can't remember the station because we don't watch local news. But reporter came to our house and just asked us questions and she was really relatable and we watched a story and she just did a fantastic job. 

 16:03
Rachel Ridgeway
Yeah, she really did. 

 16:05
Philip Ridgeway
We had a great experience. 

 16:06
Rachel Ridgeway
Yeah, we definitely had some unique ones. I think we did. It was a podcast, right, for Connecticut. 

 16:12
Mark Mellinger
Oh, I think I remember. I know which one you're talking about. 

 16:15
Rachel Ridgeway
Go ahead. Yeah. And she asked different questions, so that was definitely an interesting interview. She focused more on the fact that Lydia and Timothy's history includes their dad having their biological dad having a diagnosis of ALS and what does that mean? And so that was definitely just a unique one, but it also provided us with the opportunity of really showing how God is in control of all things and that Lydia and Timothy still need to be given the opportunity at life despite the possibilities. And the reality is that any child has the possibility of having anything at any time. And so the idea that there's somehow a greater risk with these guys is very funny because God's in control of all things and so we have nothing to fear because we know that whatever he sends us our way as believers will be for our good and for his glory. 

 17:10
Mark Mellinger
Amen. It's such a great point. I mean, if you're human, you're fundamentally broken and in need of restoration and this side of eternity, something bad's going to happen to you that will take you out. That's just how it is. So there's really no difference, right? That's just how it is. Yeah. 

 17:35
Rachel Ridgeway
In all of human history, there's only been, what, two people that didn't die, right? 

 17:40
Mark Mellinger
Exactly. 

 17:42
Rachel Ridgeway
Yeah, exactly. So you've got a pretty high percentage chance of a Lloyd taking you home. 

 17:50
Mark Mellinger
Are you collecting highlights from that time in a scrapbook or a thumb drive or anything? 

 17:57
Rachel Ridgeway
I wish. 

 17:57
Mark Mellinger
But now you're too busy talk about your other kids, how old they are. 

 18:03
Philip Ridgeway
Well, part of it is being too busy, but also part of it's just like we didn't do this for the flame. That hasn't been a motivating factor for us really at all. We talked about our desire was to point people to Christ and for him to be glorified and so it wasn't about us. But yeah, we do have a few things here and there. Like you mentioned, the plague, Afghanistan. We haven't decided what to do with. 

 18:37
Rachel Ridgeway
You yet, but well, nowadays the Internet, it's like if they want to find out, it's just a matter of googling their names and we'll be able to find all kinds of fun things about them. 

 18:48
Mark Mellinger
And the thing is, it'll proliferate over the years, maybe go in directions that you never saw. 

 19:00
Philip Ridgeway
We also wouldn't have time, even if we wanted to do that sort of thing between, you know, works school, serving at our church. I'm in seminary. 

 19:09
Mark Mellinger
Are you going to seminary? 

 19:11
Philip Ridgeway
Yeah, I'm going a student at the Master's seminary in their MDIF program. 

 19:17
Mark Mellinger
Well, congratulations. Now are you just going to use that to serve more effectively in your home and church or do you plan to sort of switch careers and become a pastor? 

 19:29
Philip Ridgeway
I'm in training to be an elder at our church. So I don't know where God's going to take that, but I primarily just want to be a more effective servant minister of his word. So it's been neat. I've been doing that for the past year with a couple of other guys from our. 

 19:51
Mark Mellinger
How cool. Now that is really great. I was going to see if we can get you guys back. It looks like you have frozen on me, so that's okay. We were pretty much at the end of our time anyway. So I guess I will use this as an opportunity to just wrap up the podcast. We want to thank you too so much, philip and Rachel as well as Timothy and Lydia. They behaved just wonderfully. And if you would like more information about the National Embryo Donation Center and our work, you can find us at embryodonation.org. I'm Mark Mellinger. This has been the embryo adoption podcast. 

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FULL TRANSCRIPT (Please note there may be spelling, grammatical, and factual errors as this transcript was generated by AI.)
 00:00
Mark Mellinger
It's a great story of faith amid infertility. And finally, answer in embryo adoption. I'm Mark Mellinger, your host, and this is the embryo adoption podcast brought to you by the National Embryo Donation Center. You can find out more about us at Embryodonation.org. Chris and Rachel Chumita are with me today, and they are joined by their twins. You can see that if you're watching the video version. Ezekiel and Elizabeth. They're about seven months old as we record this, and they are cute as a button family. It's great to see you. 

 00:36
Rachel Chumita
Good to be here. 

 00:38
Mark Mellinger
I love it. And your kids are being so good. We'll see if that continues throughout the whole episode. It may not, and if it doesn't, that's okay. I will try not to keep you too long. I love that you have a shared faith now, but you actually didn't when you got married. Can you two walk me through how that happened? 

 01:00
Rachel Chumita
Sure. I was raised in a Protestant church. Chris was raised in a different faith that he wasn't neither of us actually were believers, although I kind of had a more solid upbringing, if you will, in terms of Christianity and my background. I knew that Jesus was the only way to heaven. But I, again, wasn't a believer. Over the years, I'd ask Chris, over time, you do know that Jesus is the only way to heaven? He'd be like, no, I don't think so. Just one day, God got a hold of my heart, and I just prayed that he would lead us to a church where I would come to really know him and where Chris would come to know him. God answered that prayer and he led us to a church through his providence and where we did both become Christians. Short story. 

 02:07
Mark Mellinger
It's an amazing story, and I should say at the outset, you guys have been married I'm not telling you this, but I'm telling our audience. You've been married for a long time. I mean, you were married for 15 years before you had your children, so it was a long road. How do you think being Christians affected the way that you navigated infertility? 

 02:31
Chris Chumita
I think it helped quite a bit, because when were first married, I have neurofibromatosis, which is a hereditary condition, and since we had no faith in God or in his providence, we decided to have vasectomy very early on in our marriage. After we became Christians, believing in God and His Providence, we decided to have it reversed, and it was considered successful. But then we just couldn't get pregnant. All the tests, the ones we did, just came back. If there's no reason, you're not. We just kind of relied as much as we could on Romans 828 and just went on from there. 

 03:07
Mark Mellinger
Yeah. All things work together for those who love God as Romans 828. Most of our audience would know that. Just in case you don't and that doesn't always mean necessarily in the here and now. It may mean in eternity. So at least we have that comfort. How did you find out about embryo adoption in the NEDC, by the way? 

 03:29
Rachel Chumita
Chris was filling the pulpit for his friend indiana, where we met Jen and Aaron Hannaker. Jen was pregnant with Evie at that time, and so were just talking, and she was like, well, she's pregnant. She's like, now this baby is adopted. And I'm like, Wait, what? I asked her about more of it, and we talked for a little while. On our way back to Ohio, I told Chris, I'm like, okay, this is really cool. What do you think about it? Chris knows that I get really emotional around my birthday every year through the years of infertility. He was like, okay, I'm totally on board, but we're going to get a couple of weeks past birthday and make sure that this is still a desire of yours before we just jump at it. The rest is history. It was still committed after a couple of weeks. 

 04:24
Mark Mellinger
Yeah, and the hammockers are terrific. EVs one of their NEDC babies. They have a couple now. Interesting. You were doing pulpit supply because Chris does have a master's degree in theology, I should say you're not a full time pastor, but you do some pulpit supply. Just doing this pulpit supply over in your neighboring state, Indiana, because you guys live in the Cleveland area. This is how you heard about yes, sir. Embryo adoption. Yes. What was the process of going through the NEDC like? Anything that you'd like to share to prepare other people who are thinking about it? 

 05:03
Chris Chumita
We thought it was just very easy. Any question asked was quickly answered. The process was very straightforward. The home study group went through. 

 05:12
Rachel Chumita
Was Snowflakes, I believe. 

 05:15
Mark Mellinger
Snowflakes family evaluation was very easy. 

 05:18
Chris Chumita
It was not like the horse stories you hear about people going through other adoptions. We really enjoyed the first trip down in Edict. We thought just meeting the whole staff, how they walked you through the whole process was very helpful and relieved any fears you might have had. 

 05:33
Mark Mellinger
Well, that's great to hear. The Snowflakes family evaluation is something that some of our families may be interested in. It's an alternative to a traditional home study. We do have a home study requirement with the NEDC, but the Snowflakes family evaluation, the SFE, is good for two years, which is longer than most home studies, so that can be a good option. Also they'll go anywhere in the country to do it. The big distinction is it is only good for embryo adoption. If you're looking for a more flexible option that's good for both traditional adoption and embryo adoption, you wouldn't want to do the SFE, but it can be a good option if you're only interested in embryo adoption like Chris and Rachel were. Your kids are being so good. I love how especially Elizabeth is looking at the camera and wanting to play with that thing. 

 06:26
Mark Mellinger
Let's talk about them a little bit. I mean, take me to the moment that Ezekiel and Elizabeth were born. 

 06:34
Rachel Chumita
Well, I will say the one thing that was really scary for me were the shots. And so I don't like shots. Chris always has to go with me to my dentist appointments for that shot. 

 06:49
Mark Mellinger
These are the shots to stimulate your cycle so your body's ready to do this. Okay, so before we get to the birth, how did you work through that? That's really practical. 

 07:00
Rachel Chumita
Well, I was scared, but then I thought, okay, it's worth it. What I also did was I got a little stuffed bare, and so I would hold onto it really tight whenever Chris would give me my shots. It was just like a little reminder of why I was getting them done. It kind of made it all worth it in the end. Just kind of that little reminder every time I get my shots, like, okay, this is for what I called it, Booba Bear. My intention was, and still is to pass those bears on to them then for when they have to go through something like a shot. After we found out we had two, we got a second for me to finish my progesterone and oil shots. So I'd hold both of them then. And so now they know. They'll know that's how much I love them, that I went through those shots and Boo Bear helped me, and it can help them. 

 07:57
Mark Mellinger
That's really good and really practical. I love that. Tell me about when they entered the world. 

 08:06
Rachel Chumita
It was a Caesarean section, and yeah, it went really well. They were like, this is your son, this is your daughter. It was just amazing. I was opened up on the table and stuff, but then they got me the babies as soon as possible, and it was just like I didn't ever want to leave them, ever. 

 08:32
Mark Mellinger
Chris? Yeah? Tell me what it was like for you. I mean, you're talking about basically 16 years of marriage with no kids and now twins. 

 08:43
Chris Chumita
Yeah, it's been a big change, but a change for a good especially with twins. When you'd ask someone with twins, so how was the first few weeks? They give you, like, the wide eyed look, and you kind of know what that looks like now. Especially right now, as they're getting order, they're getting mobile. Like, Ezekiel is very close to walking and Lisa's just starting to crawl, and they're interacting a lot more. It's just so much fun. I always say, to highlight my days when I come home from work and I walk in and say, hey, Daddy's home. They both let out a squill and try to run over to you as much as they can. 

 09:21
Mark Mellinger
Well, remember that when they're teenagers. Tuck that away in your mind. It's a sweet moment for right now and enjoy it. It doesn't always last that long. All kidding aside, I mean, they're beautiful kids. If you're watching on the video version, you can see that Elizabeth just had a pleasant smile on her face basically the whole time. Ezekiel has been looking at Daddy most of. Describe their personalities and how they have changed your lives. 

 09:53
Rachel Chumita
Go ahead. 

 09:54
Chris Chumita
Ezekiel is basically just a ham. He's always just smiling and laughing and he hits his landmarks very quickly. He's climbing up on furniture already and everything along those lines and he's just always so happy. I don't know if you can tell in the video, Elizabeth is just a sweetheart, but she has the biggest eyes, like pussing boots, which I know she's going to manipulate us later with. 

 10:19
Rachel Chumita
She's just really mild and laid back and she wants held all the time and she has a little cuddle bug and she just yeah, she's terrified of her brother because he's a bull in a china shop when it comes to his sister. 

 10:39
Mark Mellinger
Have you adjusted to twins life? I mean, I can't imagine having two newborns at the same time, and I know having one is hard. Do you think you've made the adjustment like you've got a routine down? 

 10:52
Chris Chumita
Yeah, especially now that went through sleep training. That's really helped quite a bit. 

 10:59
Mark Mellinger
Sleep training? Really? Tell me about that. 

 11:03
Rachel Chumita
It was rough. We asked a lady who does it. We hired a sleep consultant and so essentially you stay in the room so that they know that you're there, but sometimes you just have to let them cry. It's amazing how quickly because for the first what was that? That was just after six months we started sleep training and so it was amazing for the first six months, every time they'd start to cry, you'd be like, grab them before they wake up their sibling. It was amazing to me how quickly they adapted to sleeping through each other's meltdown. You'd have one like just screaming and the other one would just be fast asleep and so it was an interesting experience. It was intense, but I think we're coming out pretty well on the other side. 

 11:59
Mark Mellinger
Well, it's a great takeaway for people who do have twins. I love your story. You guys have been so good to share it and the kids have been so good. You've held them the whole time and they've been great. I don't want to make it too long. We're about ready to wrap up. Anything else about your embryo adoption experience or journey that you two felt is important and wanted to share? 

 12:24
Chris Chumita
I just think it's what's great about needic is it's such a pro life message. It's an area in the pro life movement, I think, that's very neglected because as Christians, we all believe that life begins its conception and there's hundreds of thousands of babies that just need adopted and need a chance to live life. It's something I wish that more pro life groups and other churches would get behind and help promote it. We all really like, too, how Edith can work with people financially as well and how much more affordable it is than traditional adoption and IVF amen. 

 13:02
Mark Mellinger
It is all of those things. You're right, it is still the corner of both the pro life and pro adoption movements that the church is capital C church is just learning about. Well, no meltdowns. They're just now starting to get a little fussy. It is the perfect time to wrap up this episode. Chris, Rachel and Ezekiel and Elizabeth, I want to thank you all so much. You have a beautiful family and this was so much fun. 

 13:28
Rachel Chumita
Okay, thank you very much. 

 13:29
Chris Chumita
Thank you so much. 

 13:30
Mark Mellinger
If you want to find out more about the National Embryo Donation Center, you can go to our website, embryodonation.org. Again, that's embryodonation.org. I'm Mark Mellinger. This has been the embryo adoption podcast. 

 00:01
Mark Mellinger
Generally on the embryo adoption podcast, we're sharing stories that turned out well in just about every respect. We want to be very careful and transparent, too, as we describe the ups and downs of embryo adoption to cover absolutely every angle. The truth is, not every story has the happy ending with the neat bow, and we need to talk about that. So that's what we're doing today. I'm Mark Mellinger, your host. This is the embryo adoption podcast brought to you by the National Embryo Donation Center. My guests today are Jared and Kristi Taylor. They have been gracious enough to go down this hard road with us here for today's episode. I can't thank you, too, enough for this. I think it's really important for people who either have gone through embryo adoption and have experienced some of the same feelings that you have and people who are prospective embryo adoption families to know about this and hear about it. 

 01:02
Mark Mellinger
So it's really important. I want to start here, though. Why did embryo adoption initially pique your interest? 

 01:11
Kristi Taylor
We actually have three biological children first, and went the route of oral fertility drugs with the first two. The last one was a total surprise. We just started pursuing a traditional adoption. We looked into traditional adoption for a long time. A bunch of different agencies. Our fertility doctor actually recommended us for embryo adoption, and so I started looking into that. I was on board with it more before Jared was, so I just kind of waited for him to catch up with me. I don't know. Being pregnant, pregnancy is a cool thing. It's a miraculous thing. I think that was part of the draw, I think, to embryo adoption, because it's a neat thing to be able to have babies and your own babies and how to, I don't know, take your prenatals and how to do all the right things with it. And so that was a cool thing. 

 02:05
Kristi Taylor
Adoption has always been in our path, though. 

 02:07
Jared Taylor
Well, I think it gives a different perspective to the traditional adoption, because one traditional adoption is very hard right now, and it's a business. The other thing you get with traditional adoption is you don't for sure know what you're getting. Embryo adoption presented a path that felt like it was more in line with what our standards were, of how were living our own life, and gave us an opportunity to bring children that would be like us and that would have genetics like us that were a little more the environment was a little more controlled than just a wild card. 

 02:45
Mark Mellinger
Definitely a more controlled environment. You guys ended up being one of our favorite couples. You always had a story for us every time you came in the door, and we're always of such good humor, so it's just proof you don't have to have had NADC kids, through the NADC at least, who survived outside the womb to be part of the NADC family, because, Jared and Christie, you very much are. Describe your experience with the NADC. 

 03:19
Kristi Taylor
We love you all. That's part of the frustrating thing about it all is like, everything should have worked out and then it all just became this massive. Well, 2020 was not a good year, I think, for anybody. That's pretty much how I would sum it up. 2020 sank pretty bad, right? We first matched with our first embryo donation family, we adored them. They even had the same names as us. Their babies looked like our babies. It was just meant to be. I think when went in for that transfer, I was a little shocked. I think that was my biggest shock when it didn't work out, because everything was supposed to be and it obviously wasn't. COVID started and I was suddenly homeschooling our three children and that was a disaster. Went in for our second transfer. I remember, well, the week before we left to Tennessee, were actually matched with a baby for this traditional agency were working with. 

 04:23
Kristi Taylor
And were so excited for that. We were still going to go to Tennessee and we had this baby. The day that the mom was supposed to show up here in our state, she didn't come. So then we didn't have that baby. We flew to Tennessee and we landed. I turned my phone on and I had this message from Dr. Keenan saying, hey, something came up. I need you to call me. Here's my cell phone number. Thought, well, this is beautiful. We called him and he said that they went to thaw out the embryos and there wasn't any. He doesn't know what happened to them. We could decide what we wanted to do if we wanted to fly home or go for what was it? 

 05:01
Mark Mellinger
A backup set, right? 

 05:02
Jared Taylor
Yeah, it was anonymous transfer. All these big words, so we wouldn't have the information, we wouldn't have the couple that we had picked out. I believe with each one of them, we actually did zooms with them. At least one of them, maybe two of them. We did zooms prior to actually them accepting us, which is an interesting thing of where they still had control. These ones, we got that phone call and he goes, this is the first time we've ever had it happen here. It's a surprise. We've heard of it only at one other time. This doesn't happen. That night went and we prayed about it. Because of COVID we couldn't change our flight. It wasn't easy to do. We just got up the next morning and we thought, well, we'll just go in and see if any others come across. Our feeling that we think we should do. 

 05:58
Jared Taylor
We found one, and that one was actually successful. 

 06:02
Kristi Taylor
Yeah, for a week. Was it? 

 06:03
Jared Taylor
For a week? 

 06:04
Kristi Taylor
For a couple of days. I don't know what happened with that. I think one stopped growing and then the other one I don't know. Was it a topic? I don't know. All I know is I was getting my blood drawn like every week for the next two months. So that was fun, it was pleasant. I was good relationships with our fulfillment. Went for a third transfer, and I think neither one of us had really high hopes with that. 

 06:29
Jared Taylor
The pessimism set in but the staff at NEDC is just great. Everybody there from the minute you walk in to the minute you leave, and through even the phone calls of the next couple of weeks, they take care of you and they care about you. And you really did. You do feel like it's a family and you want to be a part of it. I think that's why we want to do this today, too, is because even though weren't successful in the way we wanted, we still hope we can still be a part. We've had a few friends that have reached out to us wondering about it, and we've referred them over. It's hard it is to possibly be a blessing to somebody else in their own life when you didn't get it to come through, or hoping at least we can still be of some good. 

 07:17
Mark Mellinger
Well, and you certainly are by doing this. You didn't have to do it, you weren't pressured into it. You wanted to do it after prayerful consideration, and I really respect that. Take me to that moment, because others who go through embryo adoption have been there or may be there. That moment when you realized the ultimate result was not going to be what you wanted, even though the vast majority of couples who come through the NEDC for multiple transfers do have children, you reached the end of the line, and that wasn't going to be your result. What were your thoughts and how did you grapple with that? 

 08:02
Kristi Taylor
Well, I'd have to say ice cream is always like a good route to use chocolate, any of those. Also, I think giving yourself grace and knowing whatever emotion you feel is fine and it's okay and it doesn't matter. I don't think emotions are a bad thing. I think that they're perfect. I think you can let yourself have time to be angry and to be upset with how it should have been. I don't know what are you going to say to it. 

 08:35
Jared Taylor
I think part of it too came down. We're on the West Coast and there's not a direct flight from we're in Salt Lake. There's not a direct flight into Knoxville for us, and so it's a few day event, and with our three kids with their ages. It was taxing on them for us to go and be gone. They were a part of the journey, too. We did not have any secrets from them. They knew what was going on. They knew that were trying to do it, and they got excited about it. And you just come to it. You desire and you want it so bad, but sometimes what may have meant to be and whatever was in the plan, success from our eyes was not success from God's eyes. Unfortunately, he has to allow the things of Earth to happen, too. He's pretty good at allowing agency and the elements to take place. 

 09:42
Mark Mellinger
Was that the hardest part, sharing the disappointment with the children? 

 09:51
Kristi Taylor
No, not really. We have of disappointment in our family anyways, and so it just was like, oh, hey, guess what, guys? I think my hardest part was I thought for sure this is what God wanted us to do, and then it didn't work. I think my hardest part was being like, okay, well, I'll just write this down to my little memoirs, and then when I die, I'll have my book club chat with God and be like, hey, I'd really like to discuss these chapters because what the heck? It doesn't make any sense to me. I think that is what I'm waiting for, because I don't think it will make sense on Earth. It doesn't. Nobody can say anything that will make sense, because it doesn't. I think that is just where that is. It's just in my little memoirs, and I will wait until I am dead. 

 10:36
Jared Taylor
From the husband's perspective, it's really a helpless spot to because you have no control over anything. You can give your opinion, you can give advice, but pregnancy brings along its own set of mindset, and you have to watch your wife go through and prepare to become pregnant. It's IVF transfer, so there's a lot of hormones that are injected and you go through a lot of that. The emotions are real, and it's a difficult spot to try to be supportive and move through it and help everybody just keep going forward. 

 11:21
Mark Mellinger
Are you still glad you adopted embryos? 

 11:24
Jared Taylor
Yeah, I think so. Because even though we don't have a connection with those individuals anymore, I think when we get to the next side, we still will have a connection. I think our sphere of people have grown, if nothing else. We learned some things, as Chris has said, it's not necessarily some things we particularly wanted to learn or whatever want anybody to have to go through, because it challenges you as to whether you feel like you succeeded in life or not. I think it's definitely been an experience, that's for sure. 

 12:07
Mark Mellinger
Yeah. My devotion last night was a Tim Keller reading on job, and it was really speaking to what you both have said. Sometimes when we suffer and it seems to make no earthly sense, we're going through the same thing that Job went through. God never revealed the reason to him of his suffering. At least it's not recorded in the book of Job. But he did have a purpose. He did have a plan. Job just didn't see the plan. That's where you two are right now when it comes to embryo adoption. That's where we all are, through various struggles and trials in our lives, right? These things that it seemed to be like, why would this not work? What the heck? What's going on? At least we have that assurance of knowing there is a plan and we'll know someday, like you said, Christie, but we don't see the plan now. 

 13:07
Mark Mellinger
We just have to put our trust in the fact that someday we will. I want the two. If you look at the NADC success. 

 13:15
Jared Taylor
Rate from our first transfer to the third transfer, the organization success rate shot, if I remember right, it went from like on the first one. I remember asking Dr. King, what are our odds? And he basically said, flip a coin. That's about where we're at right now. From after that third one and even to now, it looks like it's more in the 70% to 80%, depending upon the cycle. 

 13:44
Mark Mellinger
Now we have had many that have had that success rate. Not everyone does. You still have your more around 50% and I think we've had even one or two that were lower. One thing I like about working here is we never want to embellish our press clearings. We want to be honest and straight shooters with people. You are right, Jared. The vast majority of our cycles, it seems like the rates have only gone up over the past couple of years, but not all of them are that way. It's certainly not a guarantee, but yeah, I know what you're saying. It increases the frustration, right? 

 14:32
Jared Taylor
It does. 

 14:33
Mark Mellinger
What would you say? Okay, talk to somebody who is just going in on the front end of embryo adoption when couples are doing this, understandably and there's validity to this, they're excited, they're dreaming and hoping and thinking of the possibilities of having children. What would you say to someone who's just on the front end? This possibility something they need to keep in the back of their mind the whole way? What would you two advise? 

 15:10
Kristi Taylor
I don't think so. I don't know. I don't want to live my life waiting for the worst thing to happen. I mean, I don't want to every time I sit down to eat, think I'm going to get food poisoning or get in your car and today's the day I'm going to get in a wreck. It's possible. It's probably going to happen, but it I don't want to live my life like that. Pregnancy is an exciting thing and I think you should be excited for it, and I think that have a positive attitude about it. If it doesn't work, I mean, ice cream again, is always helpful. Put some plugs in and see if we get endorsed. I think it's always good to choose happiness, but also to give yourself grace for whatever emotion does come your way. 

 15:54
Jared Taylor
I agree. The same way she uses some of the same references we use. Car accidents happen all the time. Bad things happen. In reality, if you're a couple that's coming to NEDC or that you're looking at adoption, you've probably been on a pretty rough road anyway. Adoption is not usually anybody's first choice. You always want to twerk, and luckily we had three biological kids, but then weren't able to have anymore, and we just felt prompted that adoption was part of it, and so that's why we just felt that we should continue to look, you can never know something if you don't go for it. If you've been put on the path to even explore the NEDC, there's probably some powers behind it, and it's not something you should go in just thinking it's going to be a perfect road. I'm sure you guys have success stories that they come in, they have their first initial consult, everything looks great, they come back for the next visit. 

 16:51
Jared Taylor
It works. Their kids are born perfectly at 40 weeks and there's not any complications. That's just not how life works the majority of the time. If you're on the front of it, go for it. The worst that can happen is not the worst thing ever. Everything's overcomeable. 

 17:16
Mark Mellinger
Yeah. Well said. How has going through embryo adoption affected your relationships with each other, your kids and family and your faith? 

 17:29
Kristi Taylor
Well, I actually had fun going to Tennessee with just Jared. It was like our little kid free vacations. We talk about the different places we used to go eat, and that was fun. I think that it helped our kids that hard things happen to everybody, so I think that they've grown a lot. I mean, they were just a little when were doing all these different things, and I think it helps them have compassion for other people when they're having hard things happen to them because they realize, oh, yeah, it does happen, but we can get through it. I'm still waiting on my book club chat with God. I think there are some parts that are really good and some parts that I just don't even address yet. There how is your relationship? 

 18:16
Jared Taylor
I think it took us to a different level that we had to be to. It was it was a blast. I mean, why in Knoxville? Make sure you go to Calhouns. The best Blazer are everything in the. 

 18:30
Mark Mellinger
USA says it right on the sign. 

 18:33
Jared Taylor
Yes. It was great, and we loved it. We kind of had our little routine that we got into. Unfortunately, we did have to go four times. And we had talked to Dr. King, and we probably could have done some things to have one more shot, but it just didn't feel like it was the right thing for us to do at that point. It pushed our relationship to different limits, and it makes it so that other things that come up in normal day to day sure are miniscule compared to some of the stresses that went through with that. We've now ultimately we end up getting into foster care. We adopted two little boys, and I think it's made us appreciate those. 

 19:19
Mark Mellinger
Kids just more, talk about that journey. I mean, that's where I wanted to end it. I think that's what everybody who's listening to this is going to wonder. Was your family building journey totally over after being done with embryo adoption? You're saying no, were still about helping the most vulnerable we're going into the foster care system. 

 19:42
Kristi Taylor
Well, I was ready to call it quits, but no, we keep going. We renewed our home city again, and we had with another agency, and we had all the whole mess of situations with traditional adoption. Probably seven months later, I was telling Jared, I was like, let's just look into foster care. I don't want to adopt from foster care, but we have a lot to offer, and our kids had a lot to offer. We got certified really quickly, and we started getting all these phone calls from case workers. Jared and I looked at each other like, what are we doing? This is really heavy stuff. 

 20:21
Jared Taylor
Including we had a traditional adoption that fell through, too, that were actually on our way to the airport. The difficult part about traditional adoption is, like I had said earlier, it's a business. On our way, we got a phone call that the birth mom's mom had gotten involved and she wanted money. She didn't care about anything else, and she put a demand out for some money. We turned around and came back home and walked away from it. About two weeks later, were matched with two little boys that we ultimately ended up adopting. Now, granted, as Christie had said, when we started embryo adoption, it took me a long time to get on board. This time she told me, hey, we should try foster care. I was a quick, hard no because we had pretty well told God that were done. We had come to the limits. 

 21:18
Jared Taylor
We couldn't take the stress with our kids. Our youngest, I think, was five when we started all this, or four. Our oldest was seven or eight. I was a pretty well set no. We prayed about it and we told him, no, this is not it. He very clearly answered back that were to do something and I think were one of the fastest approvals in the state for foster care. And it went very quick. 

 21:46
Kristi Taylor
These little boys were looking for their home too. The funny thing about it is they look exactly like Jared. The ones that I bear look like Jared. The ones that we adopt look like Jared. His genes are very strong in this place. Now we have five kids and I drive a Suburban and there's no more. It's sweet. 

 22:07
Mark Mellinger
How old were your foster adopted children when you adopted them? How old is everybody now in the family? 

 22:16
Kristi Taylor
So we've had them for a year. Our oldest daughter, she's eleven and a half. We have a nine year old and a seven year old. 

 22:24
Jared Taylor
Yes. 

 22:25
Kristi Taylor
The ones we just adopted, our older one just turned five and then the baby is a year and a half. 

 22:31
Mark Mellinger
Oh wow. Still a baby in the house as well. 

 22:35
Kristi Taylor
Crazy. Yes. 

 22:36
Mark Mellinger
Wow. Yeah. One and a half to nine and a half. That's a great joyous home of seven and five of them kids. 

 22:44
Jared Taylor
That's awesome. 

 22:44
Mark Mellinger
Now is your family building journey done or do ? 

 22:49
Kristi Taylor
I mean our friends, our foster friends joke with us that I could drive like a twelve passenger van and I probably could but I don't think I want to. Also knowing us, I mean we can't ever say this is how it's going to go because then somebody just laughs and says, no it's not. I just tread lightly with what we say is going to happen in the future. Our daughter has four brothers and she really wants a sister. That's nice. I don't know. I don't know what the answer is. I feel so old and so tired and so happy and we have five kids and we've reset to a baby again and so I think that I don't know what the future is. I'm sure it'll be good. I'm sure it'll be busy and messy. 

 23:41
Jared Taylor
One thing in our life is we've never set specific locked in goals. We have our ultimate goals. Obviously we plan to be married for time and for all eternity. We want our family to be healthy but we don't ever lock in. This is the only way it's going to go for us. That's how were able to come upon the NADC is because we've kept our life flexible and open. That's how we've also adopted these two kids out of foster care because we've allowed ourselves to stay instruments in God's hands. Because the minute you start saying yes or no when we first got married and we start talking about how many kids do we want? I came from a family of four. Christie's a family of five. For a while three kids looked really great. A few late nights lately with a baby screaming a lot. 

 24:30
Jared Taylor
Three kids really seemed like a really good idea. Again, I would say our kids are well traveled. They've flown a ton, in fact. It's unfortunate, but all three of our kids actually are Medallion members on Delta because we like to travel so much. Now we've got two extra kids that it's. More work, but it's been great. We talk about all the time, if we only had 3, may would do this, but at the same time, then when I came home to prepare for this tonight or today, our five year old came and jumps in your arms and just gives you a daddy. I love you so much. It just puts you into, this is what we're supposed to do. If somebody's sitting out there on the fence and NEDC wasn't in your plans, go for it. 

 25:20
Mark Mellinger
It's priceless. Well, I love that. Your happy ending, it may not have come with us, but it did come. You have your children that you're supposed to have asterisk maybe more. But happy ending for now. And I love that. Again, I'm so thankful to you too, for sharing this hard part of your journey. It's going to help so many people. We also want to thank all of you for listening. If you want to find out more about the National Embryo Donation Center, just go to our website. It's embryodonation.org. Embryodonation.org. I'm Mark Mellinger, and this has been the embryo adoption podcast. 

Rate, review, and subscribe to The Embryo Adoption Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts.....    

FULL TRANSCRIPT (Please note transcription is done by AI. There may be some spelling, grammar, and other errors.):


 00:01
Mark Mellinger
Embryo adoption touched her life so much, she has decided to help others by writing a couple of books about embryo adoption. I'm talking about Savannah Hansen. She's a national embryo donation center, mom. She is my guest today on the embryo adoption podcast. I'm your host, Mark Mellinger. The embryo adoption podcast is brought to you by the National Embryo Donation Center. You can find out more about us at embryodonation.org. Savannah, let's start by describing your own embryo adoption journey with the NEDC. 

 00:34
Savannah Hansen
Of course. My husband and I got married in 2015, and like everybody else, we just thought that it was going to be so easy and were going to have a family and it was going to be a breed. That did not happen. And I was 18 at the time. My husband was 19. Were young and thought that, of course you're going to have a big family, until the doctors told us we would never have biological children, which was a hard pill to swallow. I had actually found the NEVC a few years before we ever contacted you guys, because were still pursuing fertility treatment and trying everything under the sun to get there, until we really just felt God shut that door and say, no, this is what I want for you. We did, and it went very quickly. It was amazing. It was so fast. 

 01:35
Savannah Hansen
Before we knew it, we had adopted eight precious embryos and had our first transfer, and I was pregnant with my precious little babies. From there, it's just been a wild ride. We've had a few transfers. I'm pregnant with baby number two now, so it's been the best thing that we could have ever done. It's been amazing. 

 02:03
Mark Mellinger
Now, do you mind talking about Declan your first NADC baby? 

 02:10
Savannah Hansen
Of course. Declan is the best baby I've just ever experienced, ever been around. Of course, I am partial, of course, but everyone says it because he's the sweetest, most caring, gentle soul that he wants everyone to be included. He checks on you if anyone's crying. He'll run up to you and touch your face and say, Are you okay? And he's just the sweetest thing. We have been so blessed. We know that God really directed us in terms of the donor family and who were meant to choose. We have an open adoption with them, and it is beautiful, and I love them to pieces, but he has just been such a blessing to us, to them. It was everything we could have ever imagined and more. He's the light of our lives and our entire church. Call him the church's baby. Like, we can't claim him. 

 03:05
Savannah Hansen
He's everybody's baby. They're like, no, give me my baby. So he's two now. He'll be three in December. It was so fast, the blink of an eye, that he is just the best. 

 03:20
Mark Mellinger
He's going to be a great big brother, and I'm sure he's looking forward to that. Does he sort of get it? 

 03:26
Savannah Hansen
Oh, he gets it. He talks about the baby in my belly every day and asks for the baby to come out of my belly so that way baby can be home with us and in the car with us and everywhere with us. And he shares his water. He'll run up with his water and put it on my belly, and he goes, Baby, drink water. And I'm like that's, right? Baby needs water. Even Sonograms and everything, he'll look at the screen and he goes, Baby swimming in the water. I was like, yes, baby, the baby is in the water. He's so excited. He can't wait. 

 04:02
Mark Mellinger
This is just going to be great. I love it. Before we talk about each book individually, let's just start with the concept. Like when and why did you decide you wanted to write children's books on this? 

 04:18
Savannah Hansen
The dream itself to ever even write a children's book started back when I was a child, actually, that was something that I had already held dear to me. I love to write, but that's something as a child, you think, okay, well, that's a dream that we'll just forget about and it won't go anywhere. While facing all of the years of infertility and going through that and just knowing how isolating it was and seeing all of the other couples and young women in the clinics who were clearly facing so much emotional distress and in there and didn't want to talk to anybody because of the shame and didn't want to do all these things, I was like, man, we need more resources in this area. When we found NEDC and went through that process and just looking to see, okay, what are all of these resources? 

 05:18
Savannah Hansen
Because we chose open adoption, and we want it to always be something that our children know, and we want them to understand the concept in a way that makes sense to them, so that way as they grow, they can ask more questions. And there weren't many. You guys provide the resources of some books that other parents have written, and that was a huge thing. I bought all of them immediately, but I just knew that it was still something that was so nobody's talked about. Even, what a blessing to have Declan in the world, because it opens up so many conversations and I tell everybody about his story and so many people don't know about it. It was really then that I was like, no, something needs to change. There are so many babies waiting to have a chance to live this life, and people should know about it, because I've talked to so many people who had faced infertility years and years prior, and they said, I wish that I would have known about this option. 

 06:20
Savannah Hansen
I would have chosen that. Now I have no children. I didn't get to experience any of that. It's so devastating to me because it's such a beautiful option. I knew that for my children, I wanted to have more resources. I still kind of put it on the back burner, was like, I'm just being a mom and living the life that I've always wanted, and this is just so amazing. Until one night, God would not let me sleep and kept giving me the title of these books. I'm like, okay, God, I get it. I'm going to go to bed now. And he was like, no, you're not. I rolled over, and I was like, okay, let me just get out my phone. Just the notes app on the phone. I'll type what you tell me to type, and then I'll go to bed. It was a good 15 minutes later. 

 07:12
Savannah Hansen
It happened two nights in a row with each book and 15 minutes. 15 minutes. A week and a half later, I was published. It was insane. It was insane. 

 07:25
Mark Mellinger
That's crazy. 

 07:27
Savannah Hansen
Yes. That's why I'm like, what, God? You have a purpose for these books. Even if it just touches one family, that's worth it. It's fine. 

 07:38
Mark Mellinger
Amen. 

 07:39
Savannah Hansen
Amen. 

 07:39
Mark Mellinger
By the way, both books, and we'll get to them here in a second, both are available on the NEDC website. At least we have links to both of them. If you go to our books section, we have five books on there, and Savannahs are two of them. They're called the greatest gift and the miracle of you. I can tell you, Savannah, that our ladies in the back. That's how I refer to them, ladies in the back. That means nothing to anybody. Our patient coordination team looked at one of the books, The Miracle of you, and they were crying at the end of it. You have already touched some people, and we've reviewed these books. We love them. I want you to go through and just describe each of them, the Greatest Gift and The Miracle of you. Why don't you start with the greatest gift? 

 08:31
Savannah Hansen
Okay, perfect. The Greatest Gift is definitely the story specifically geared for embryo adoption or adoption in any way, honestly. Specifically, I wanted to make sure that parents could read it to their children and children could identify like, oh, my goodness, this is like my story, and this is how you tell me I came about. Over time, as you grasp deeper understanding and they can ask more questions of, okay, well, what does this symbolize? The Greatest Gift is about a carrot couple, and they want to start a garden and grow some carrots because, of course, why wouldn't you? They're the best, and they have some trouble, but their friends across the way do not. They find theirselves on this journey of embryo adoption, and they adopt these precious little carrots who come about. It is a celebration of families grown in ways that are nontraditional but beautiful and specifically designed the way that they're meant to be. 

 09:45
Savannah Hansen
But, yeah, it's pretty simple. It's sweet, it's for your little ones, but it's definitely from the heart. 

 09:54
Mark Mellinger
The Miracle of you is more of a people book in the sense that the character in it is not a vegetable. The character in it is an actual human being. And that's what the pictures look like. Describe that book. 

 10:09
Savannah Hansen
The Miracle of You, I wanted it to be something that I imagined. The next morning, after I read it in the notes app on my phone, I read it and I just thought, I would read this to my son. I would read this to Declan at night or in the morning or before a nap or whenever. I would read this to him. I just thought, wow, what a good way to show your children how deeply you've desired them and how wanted they are and how loved they are in society. I feel like people lose that perspective a lot of the time, and so many people do feel unwanted or do feel like, man, this isn't the life that I should have had. I wanted it to always come for parents to be able to have the opportunity to tell their children no, even if they never faced infertility, even if they didn't wait years upon years to have these children in their arms, but if they have desired and wanted them and loved them since before they even existed. 

 11:13
Savannah Hansen
I wanted children to understand that from a young age, even if that was you start reading this to your infants, and then later on it's like, oh, my goodness, I read this to you every night when you were three months old, and you just stared at me because you couldn't do anything else. It is just a celebration of that beautiful life that is here, and letting them know that regardless however they came about, whether it was easy, whether it was hard, whether it was years, whether it wasn't that they are loved and wanted. I wanted to make sure that when I saw it, I could identify my son in it. When I hired the illustrator, I was like, listen, these are some reference pictures, but I don't want it to be exactly my son. I was like, I want it to be anybody could see their kid. 

 12:10
Savannah Hansen
But, yeah, I just wanted it to be a resource for parents to be able to reach their kids and say, hey, I love you and I cherish you, and you are not only answered prayer, and for some people, they don't live that life and they don't believe the way that we believe. I guarantee you, their children are precious to them, just like ours are to us. I wanted it to be able to be that for people. 

 12:37
Mark Mellinger
And it is, and you're absolutely right. You do not have to have gone through embryo adoption or even infertility at all for that book to be a really salient one that's going to resonate with parents and kids. I want you to unpack the process of putting these books together because you said it happened really quickly. I just think this would be an interesting process to learn about. Unpack it from okay, you talked about the writing. You basically wrote it in your notes app on your phone, which is awesome that you can do that these days. Take me from that point to finding an illustrator to finding a publisher. What was that like? 

 13:19
Savannah Hansen
Right? I wrote the books in the notes app, and you think, oh, it was late at night. It's probably garbage. I'll look over it in the morning, and I remember reading them and just thinking to myself, okay, well, I would read that to my son. I just sent it to my family without any context, I just sent it to them, and they messaged me back. They were actually coming to North Carolina within a few months for my son's first birthday. So they're like, oh, that's really nice. Where did you find that? Are you going to read that at the birthday party or something? I was like, oh, no, I wrote it. It was like, well, wait a minute. You wrote it? And I'm like, yes, I did. I realized, I was like, okay, well, somebody else could believe in this too. Okay, we'll see. I just kind of left him, and I was like, all right. 

 14:23
Savannah Hansen
A week later, I told my husband. I was like, Listen, what do you think about this? If I just reach out if I find a publisher, that I feel like, hey, I'm meant to go this route or with them. I'll look at some what do you feel about us pursuing this? And he was like, absolutely. Do it. Make the call. Do whatever you need to do, because this is great. This will be a great option. I called, and I got into contact with Christian Faith Publishing. The lady was so sweet, and she was like, yeah, just send me them. Of course, it was very rough draft. I was like, of course, yeah. I'll type them up on my computer really fast and kind of tell you what I would assume or like the images to be or what I envisioned in my mind. I typed it all out, and I sent them to her that day, and she called me back, and she said, we want both of them. 

 15:22
Savannah Hansen
I was floored because I'm preparing myself for the okay, honey, no. I'm like, oh, wait, are you sure? Do you have the right person? Are you meant to be calling me? My name is Savannah. Yes, honey, we want both. And so it was such a whirlwind. It was crazy. But we started right away. We just jumped right into it. I remember for the greatest gift, I was going to use their illustrators because of the style of book that it was. I really wanted it to be something that you could identify and a kid could look at and be like, I want the carrot book. I wanted it to be something that would draw their attention for the miracle of you. I wanted something very specific, and I wanted the artwork to be nostalgic in a way that I was read books from my grandma and the style of art that isn't seen anymore today. 

 16:26
Savannah Hansen
I wanted that desperately, because those are the books that I reach for, that I grab, and I'm like, oh, this is beautiful. Oh, I'm going to have this for my kids. I actually downloaded a few apps and went online and went to go look for people who were advertising their services in artwork and all these other things. I found this beautiful young lady named Elena from Russia. I messaged her, and all she had on her profile was actually animals. She did a lot of nature drawings and paintings and everything, but I could see the style in there. I messaged her, and I said, hey, this is something that I'm wanting to do. Have you ever drawn people before? No. The answer was no, she had not. I kind of explained to her what I wanted, and she was like, okay, well, let me try it, and I'll get back to you in a few days. 

 17:32
Savannah Hansen
Of course she sent me a message back, and immediately I knew that it had to be her, because it was exactly I immediately was like, I want to reach, and I want to grab that picture, and I want to keep it, and I want to have it. I went through the process with her of telling her every page what I wanted the details of, okay? I want their eye color to be this. I want their hair color to be this. I want on this page different hair colors, different eye colors, because they don't know what their kid is going to look like. That's the beauty of adoption and just all of these things. She was so sweet and so wonderful to work with. At the end of it, I paid her, and she gave me all of the files and talked about a God moment too, because it was right before everything happened with Ukraine. 

 18:27
Savannah Hansen
And so they shut everything down. They canceled all of their profiles, and so I got all of the illustrations a week before that happened, I think, and I wouldn't have been able to get it otherwise. 

 18:40
Mark Mellinger
Just in time. Wow. 

 18:43
Savannah Hansen
Just in time. It was like that throughout the entire process. Just like our process going through the NADC, everything was so god, everything. It's nice to look back and just see. I'm like, okay. God, thank you. Thank you for your hand in that. 

 19:00
Mark Mellinger
Yeah, well, she did a great job. The pictures are captivating and you're right, as I think about it is drawn in more of that older style and those things do stick with you. So this is important. I mean, I'm quite a bit older than you are and I can still remember decades ago the books that my parents, some of them read to me when I was just a little kid, Declan's age, like Goodnight Moon and the Mother Goose stuff and the arch Christian books. I mean, I'm 47 years old and I can still remember how formative and important those were. They have really good memories attached to them. It's great that you're involved now in doing such work that's going to have significant impact and resonance throughout people's lives that's really so meaningful. Savannah so I'm glad you've done this. It's awesome. What have the responses to the books been like so far? 

 20:02
Savannah Hansen
Oh, it's been wonderful. I just went to California, where all of my family is for a month, and I had a woman come up to me who goes to my mother's church, and she has a ton of children mindy, most of whom were adopted, not embryo adoption in any way. I just remember her coming up to me and crying. Of course then I start crying because that's all I wanted for these books. She just said, I'm so excited because I have something to read to my babies that not only says how beautiful our family is in the way that it has been created, but how loved they are, not only by us, but by God, and that they were placed here for a reason. Because I think that can be hard when there's been difficulties in life. She said to have it from the perspective of our faith and knowing that they are precious and they are wonderful, but being able to tell them that in ways that they understand and they can see and they're like, oh, okay, well, those carrots. 

 21:17
Savannah Hansen
The Carrots had a family that came together differently, but it's okay because they're beautiful and they love each other and it works out. Now I guess her kids asked for the Carrot book, which is so heartwarming to me, but it's been so beautiful. I've had so many people who have been so supportive and immediately just will be like, oh, I got my copy, or oh, I got this, and it's beautiful, and I cried. It gives people perspective as well, and more compassion in areas that they don't quite understand. I think that's important, as well as people, family members, friends that walk along, couples who face a life like this. It helps to bring that perspective of, oh, I wouldn't have ever guessed that this is how or what it might be like. It helps bring that to adults as well. 

 22:21
Mark Mellinger
And do you read them to Declan? 

 22:24
Savannah Hansen
Oh, yes, of course. Yeah, he absolutely loves books. He is a reader. We have books all over the house. He has a ridiculous amount. But, yes, I read them to him. I love it because every time he sees The Miracle of you, he'll point, he goes, oh, Declan. Yes, baby. He'll look and he'll point, he goes, you. I'm like yes, baby, you. He loves it. 

 22:55
Mark Mellinger
That is just great. I absolutely love it. Yeah, it's true what they say. There's no friend as loyal as a good book. You're doing a good work in raising a reader there. The books again are called the greatest gift. And the miracle of you. You can get them at Amazon, basically anywhere that sells books online. Again, you can go to EmbryoDonation.org. That's the NEDC's website. Just click on the book section and you'll see them there. We have links where you can buy them, so I think you'll really enjoy them. It's a great resource for embryo adoption parents or just any parents. Again, it's the greatest gift and the miracle of you by Savannah Hansen, who has been my guest. It has been a delight to talk with you, Savannah. Thank you so much for what you're doing. 

 23:46
Savannah Hansen
Thank you so much for having me and for all you do. 

 23:50
Mark Mellinger
You bet. We continue to pray for a safe, healthy conclusion to your pregnancy. We can't wait to see pictures of the new baby. This has been the embryo adoption podcast. Again, more information at embryodonation.org. I'm Mark Mellinger. We look forward to talking with you next time. 

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Rate, review, and subscribe to The Embryo Adoption Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts.

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:40 How their story started when they were little kids, even continuing through Michael’s family's long time away doing missionary work in Turkey

4:14 When they encountered infertility and learned about embryo adoption

8:30  How a generous, unexpected gift from friends enabled them to pursue embryo adoption

10:20  Michael and Naomi’s response to the gift

15:00 How they saw embryo adoption as a ministry, and how plugging into the NEDC brought them into a story bigger than themselves

17:00 What most stood out about their experience with the NEDC

20:00 Their advice for future couples going through the NEDC embryo adoption program

23:20 How they gave birth to twin boys from two different donors originating from the same embryo transfer

24:25 What pregnancy was like and how their sons have changed their lives

28:00 How they chose the boys’ names and what they mean

31:00 How they’ll talk to their sons about embryo adoption

:53 History of the group and how it formed

2:25 Purpose of the group

5:41 How administrators work to make sure only people who meet the criteria are accepted into the group

7:21 Most common topics discussed among members in the group

9:33 How God has worked in beautiful ways through the group

12:46 What the group is not for

15:06 Why it’s important to have a “safe” discussion space outside the official NEDC purview

20:46 How & why administrators of the group maintain a connection to the NEDC

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2:10 How their faith informs their heart for orphan care & adoption

5:15 Learning to handle the difficult emotional aspects of fostering children

8:14 How embryo adoption came onto their radar and why they wanted to do it

11:11 How Jen’s pregnancy is going

13:57 Were they ever worried they couldn’t handle foster care & embryo adoption? What would they say to others with that concern?

16:22 Similarities in the ways foster care & embryo adoption spoke to their hearts

19:54 What does the future look like for them in terms of adoption?

4:04-5:28  How donors Nicole & Gerard’s fertility journey played out

5:51-10:33  Nicole & Gerard on how they agonized over what to do with their frozen embryos, and how a canceled credit card saved their embryos’ chances at life outside the womb.

11:27-16:39  What the mediation process was like for the open adoption

17:20-18:00  What it was like for the donors to see their embryos results in babies born

18:42-22:33  How David & Laura felt when their children were born

23:20-29:15  What their open relationship looks like today

29:53-30:40  What Colt, the donors’ teenage son, thinks of the open adoption relationship